Amae And Japanese Girls
Mar 6th, 2008 by Neil
It’s been a while since i’ve written about a something like this, the last time was on the subject of Honne and Tatemae.
One thing i’ve noticed since moving to Japan and something Japanese girls themselves have mentioned to me is the level of maturity, or lack thereof, in Japanese girls. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, not by any stretch, truth be known that’s actually what many Japanese men and also many Gaijin love about Japanese Girls.
The fact the Japanese have a hard and fast word for it, to me, means it’s a known behaviour and certainly a behaviour that has it’s place in Japanese society. Also firstly let me say, my thoughts on this subject have NO connection whatsoever to the 2 Japanese Friends i was out with last night should they happen to read this!
Amae exists in many facets of Japaese society, the love for Anime and Cosplay are visible examples of this.
Amae (甘え) is a Japanese word coined from the verb amaeru by Takeo Doi to serve as a noun, which he then used as a keyword to unlock, analytically, the behavior of a person attempting to induce an authority figure, such as a parent, spouse, teacher or boss, to take care of him. The verb itself is rarely used of oneself, but rather is applied descriptively to the behaviour of other people.
The person who is carrying out amae may beg or plead, or alternatively act selfishly while secure in the knowledge that the caregiver will forgive and indulge. The behavior of children towards their parents is perhaps the most common example of amae, but it has been suggested that child-rearing practices in the Western world seek to stop this kind of dependence in children, while it continues into adulthood in close relationships in Japan.
Amae also exists everywhere in the world, for example the carrying of a girls books by her male friend. There is no physical reason why she can’t carry her own books, it’s more a matter of her feeling cared for and him feeling like the provider. In Japanese society Amae is far greater exaggerated than anywhere else i’ve seen, i wish i could attach the sound of the girls voice from the Konbini store near work, she must be 40+ yet she sounds and speaks as though she’s 14. There’s also girls in the office that are well into their 30’s at times incapable of walking normally instead chosing to skip or break into a child like run.
Japanese men like younger women, there’s no secret there, i’m quite partial to them myself. It’s widely known a girl over the age of 26 will struggle to find a partner and i’ve heard of the term ”Christmas Pudding” often used to describe them. I’d hazard a guess there’s a Japanese version of this which it was actually derived from but i can’t be certain. As a foreigner giving mid 30’s a good shove i have no problem whatsoever targetting what’s left on the shelf in the their late 20’s!
Japanese men like their girls submissive, there’s very little room in Japanese society for a stronger female character, not if they plan on getting married anyway. How else would the Japanese man live his Salary Man existance if he had a wife that expected him home to do his share of the household duties?
Amae also exists from men too and an example would be the same Salary Man coming home drunk and instead of being in more shit then the early settlers, like he would be in Western society, he is undressed and put to bed so he can do it all again tomorrow … with not a word spoken about the next day mind you.
If you want to read more Hector tells me this is a pretty good book on the subject.
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Amae And Japanese Girls | Neil Duckett…
One thing i’ve noticed since moving to Japan and something Japanese girls themselves have mentioned to me is the level of maturity, or lack thereof, in Japanese girls. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, not by any stretch, truth be known that…
Com’on Neil, MORE PICS!
-Mike
very informative posts. I learnt a whole lot. Keep up such type of posts Neil!
Will certainly try … just need to find other topics like this one, can’t be too hard living in Japan i guess.
So that’s the reason Japanese women’s voices get all high and polite-y when they talk on the telephone… one of my co-workers couldn’t (or wouldn’t) explain to me when I asked.
Really interesting read. I now understand the Amae concept, I couldn’t really understand it from how it was explained to me.
I could have gone on and on with other examples, truth be known i didn’t know if others would understand it, obviosuly you’ve confirmed they do, thanks.
This kind of posts is why I subscribed. I can relate so much more than I can express, but I don’t know why.
Glad you liked it!
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I like your posts because they are like a handbook for people that don’t know much about Japan. They can get their feet wet on your site. Let me add my two cents. Japanese women who don’t get married or have kids are called “makeinu” (”losing dogs”). Women who remain unmarried into their 30s are viewed as social losers in Japan. If she looks good, she isn’t a loser to me. Regardless of if she has a man or not, women are going to do what they want. And so am I!
Cheers RO, will do a little research on the `makeinu` … and i already know you`re in agreeance withe the xmas pudding reference.
I have a lot of very attractive single girls in my school in their 30’s and they have no “losing dog” type complexes. They seem VERY confident to me and enjoy their freedom. They look at married woman as the suckerz.
[...] days ago, Neil Duckett wrote on his blog an update called Amae And Japanese Girls. I spotted the title via Japan Soc (here) and had to find out what he had to say. I enjoy his blog [...]
Neil, you have written some really great, interesting and informative updates, but this is a really sexist and unfair post. I’ve written my own update on my blog to establish why I think this.
I hope you can see where I’m coming from. Get back to me if you have anything you want to discuss.
The post on Japan Is Doomed
No problems Mike, will have a look and comment over there. WIth regards to your comment here, this post was in now way meant to be sexist or unfair. I see this as a problem with the internet and i guess the amount of words someone can write to get a message across effectively or accurately, it seems i haven’t succeeded here.
Yeah I agree with you on the xmas pudding. I’ll take that pudding though! Both young and older Japanese girls are kawaii to me. They both want to have fun and live their life. Most Japanese girls I know travel, eat, and shop together. They do want marriage and kids, but they don’t want the bullshit that comes with it. And neither do I so we make great companions!
I quite agree with Mike, this article is a bit of a shocker. Makes one glad to not be a Japanese girl with a thing for western men (he said, thinking of his lucky fiancé!).
My guess is that Neil is painting an accurate picture of Japan - Japan as he sees it. I do recognise the traits that he talks about - but no more than I recognise those same traits here in the UK. Japanese women also happen to be people, and thus have individual personalities, mannerisms, likes and dislikes. Feeling that one can classify them all as ‘immature’ is perhaps just a reflection of the people he attracts into his life.
If I think of my partner, and the wives of my best mates in Tokyo, I would say that no matter what their age, the women are no less mature than the men (in fact the opposite is often the case).
The disrespect that Neil shows for Japanese women is, I think, quite common amongst western men first arriving in Japan. I know I felt it to a limited extent when I first went there. But I think after a while one starts to appreciate that if one is going to have a meaningful relationship with anyone, it’s necessary to take off the stereotypical specs, and see them for who they are - your equal, deserving of your respect.
Thanks for the comments Joseph, i have tried to paint a picture of the way i see it and believe Japan has been one of the easiest places to make blanket statements, although of course there are times when people … many of them, can be excluded. Like i said to Mike, there’s only so many words someone can write and it seems i may have chosen some poorly if i’ve offended or appear to have a lack of respect for the Japanese.
“I read just a bit of what you wrote.
You highlighted “acceptable opinion” and I stopped right there.
Who in the fu__ are you ?
I don’t know Neil, but his opinion is based on everything that has ever happened in his life up until the second he wrote that post. Who the fu__ are you to pass judgement on him?
You posted about him and named him and soc’d it?
acceptable opinion?
Who the fu__ decides that mike?
Society?…. Who’s?
Morals?….Who’s?
Go take a pill or a nap or whatever you need to do to get your head on straight.
You don’t like Neil’s opinion? …fine, but that is your opinion and it has NO more value than his…….remember that.”
I posted this on a site that is taking a dump on you.
I don’t know you Neil but if you listen to people who trash your opinion and then change your style ….you will just have another boring average blog.
Don’t sweat the haterz….just pity them and move along.
I appreciate the support Chris and agree with what you’ve said. I don’t think i’ve backed away from anything i’ve said, only tried to fill in the gaps, i still stand behind the jist of the story. I will definitely take “if you listen to people who trash your opinion and then change your style ….you will just have another boring average blog” on board, you’re 100% correct.
The title of the post on japansoc “Sexism & Racism in Japan Bloggers Posts” has pissed me off no end.
Hey, Neil. I enjoyed this post and I think some people are reading too much into it. Don’t let the JapanSoc post bother you. I reckon Mike’s deliberately given it a controversial headline to get eyes on his post (and I soc’ed it because I love a bit of controversy!). You may get a few more visitors who are shocked by the title… only to realize that there’s not really anything that offensive in the post at all.
Nick,
I respect you a lot, but you are so focused on traffic you are losing site of the fact that some people not as bright as you, might come away thinking Neil is quite the prick?
Your post is a bit telling….don’t you think? You suppose Mike is trying to generate traffic? So it’s O.K.? And you think some contro is good for you so you soc’ it? Putting it one step from front page so more people might get the wrong vibe about someone?
I took the Soc off my blogroll and put Neil on it. I was already very turned off by it but this is too much. I like your site and will keep it.
That’s my opinion…..FWIW
Wow, it looks like I’ve got myself into trouble for fanning the flames. Lesson learned. Sorry we won’t see you on JapanSoc anymore, Chris.
I understood your intentions Nick and can see why Mike used that title.
I guess i pride myself on not being racist so the title was pretty harsh. I can understand generating traffic with controversial title but they were a few words i wouldn’t have used lightly.
Glad to get a spot on your blogroll Chris!
What I like most from Japanese girls are their eyes… The eyes just like what I see in comics cartoon :). So, I called them cartoon eyes.
Interesting article, and nice pic too, thanks for posting it.
http://www.cosplaytoday.com/
You’ll find a few more in the Yamanote Line series.
Hi, I came over here from Mike’s blog and just wanted to comment on a few things that don’t tally with my own studies or experiences…
1. Amae is a theory, one of many, and joins the company of such theories as those that Japanese toilet-training practises or mothers carrying children on their backs rather than fronts makes a significant difference to the personality and lifestyles of all Japanese adults. Takeo Doi is an academic who is well-known in the predominantly Western field of Nihonjinron (a field which flourished twenty or thirty years ago and now receives little respect in serious scholarship of Japan), not a spokesperson for all Japanese people, so I feel it inappropriate to say that his coining a term validates and proves its meaning and existence.
2. Breaking into a run in your workplace is actually a form of politeness. It doesn’t matter if the run is very fast or for a very long distance, it is a way of displaying that the worker is making an effort to carry out whatever duty they have been assigned. There are times when a walk would seem like the worker was lazy or didn’t care, especially when speaking to a client or the boss.
4. Japanese women often have a higher-pitched voice than Western women, and the Japanese language lends itself to this. Some girls exaggerate the pitch, but many just have naturally higher voices. I really don’t think this means a 40-year-old sounds like a 14-year-old, she’d need to use excessive amounts of slang and whining to give that impression - much like any other country.
5. Japanese men like younger women - unlike Western men of course, or European men or American men, none of whom lust after schoolgirls, marry women younger than themselves or divorce their wives for younger women. I actually find this statement pretty offensive, and am pretty sure any Japanese man I’ve ever met (none of whom are in relationships with women much younger than themselves) would feel the same.
6. The Christmas Pudding thing - I’ve asked many Japanese people about this and they’ve never heard of it. I still don’t know what its basis is. Also, have you ever heard of ‘bankonka’? It’s a phenomenon of women in Japan choosing to put off marriage until their thirties or later, and is causing a lot of men to be ‘left on the shelf’. And why do these women choose not to marry? Because they want to reach a certain stage in their careers, are enjoying an independent youth and/or are more selective about the man they marry. In other words, they are rejecting a system that prevents them from reaching their full potential in life. I’m not sure which part of this seems like they are submissive or lack maturity, but I’m assuming that this isn’t an area you’ve actually studied.
7. “As a foreigner giving mid 30’s a good shove i have no problem whatsoever targetting what’s left on the shelf in the their late 20’s!”
This is one of the sleaziest things I have ever read on a blog, and it doesn’t exactly tempt me to check yours out again.
8. Yes, all Japanese men like their girls submissive. I know that’s what my Japanese Boyfriend loves about me, my shy, unopinionated nature and absolute awe of all that is HIM. This is another statement that I find offensive and am fairly sure Japanese men would too.
9. You seem to be under the delusion that all men in the West do a perfectly equal share of housework and childcare, utterly unsupported by their partners. Japanese men might depend on wives to support a salaryman lifestyle, but so do Westerners.
10. It’s nice that you’ve given men a few lines at the end, but dependence is actually more a recognised problem for men, stereotypically coddled by their mothers and served by their wives. I find it pretty obnoxious that almost the entire focus of this article is girls (with a random picture of female cosplayers included, with no explanation as to how cosplaying or Anime relate to the theory of amae) when many Japanese women are actually working pretty hard to break out of their traditional roles.
However, I’m certain that you’re not actually a student of Japanese Studies, or even too knowledgeable about it, since so much of what you’ve written here is based on outdated stereotypes and a lot of pandering to the Western perception of superiority instead of genuine understanding and respect. I don’t by any means mean that Japan is a perfect society or that dependence isn’t an issue, but to point out the issue with old, familiar images that are no longer accurate and with no mentions of the massive changes currently occuring in Japanese gender relations, workplace structures and demographics in general just displays and supports the general standard of ignorance amongst Westerners with an interest in Japan. The dash of male gaijin sleaze on top just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
So, here goes.
1 - I don’t understand your point, “so I feel it inappropriate to say that his coining a term validates and proves its meaning and existence” …. ?
2 - Bullshit, you are not familiar with the childlike meaningless run i am referring to. The girls i am referring to often break into a run purely because there is someone following them down the hallway. They appear to be intimidated or embarrased that they are walking through the room in full view of others.
3 - You missed 3?
4 - The girls i am referring to do have a higher pitched voice at times, the voice fluctuates depending on the occasion.
5 - My blog is about my life in Japan, so i dont feel the need to mention all other races. From experience, and i have travelled extensively, Japanese men like younger women moreso than other races.
6 - The Christmas Pudding thing i don’t doubt is western only, having thought about it more. I haven’t heard of bankonka, i will look into it though. NO it’s not an area i have studied, WTF do i have to have studied something for to have an opinion? Too much study makes for a dull person, i am assuming you’re a paper champion on many topics.
7 - I’m 35, i’m happy to date girls that are 25 ish …. thats boring, i used my own flavour of writing to jazz it up, nothing more nothing less, anyone that knows me would understand that. The same as my writting comes across sleazy to you, yours comes across pompous ‘head up your own ass’ to me.
8 - I’m guessing thats sarcasm.
9 - Not a all, on the whole Western men do get pressure to do their share.
10 - The article was about Amae and Japanese Girls, so there was no need to mention men at all. Agree with your comments on being coddled. I always use a picture in my post, i like the colour. Do you notice the girl on the right facial expression??
Student of Japanese Studies, no i am not. Outdated, i think not, again where do you live in Japan, how long have you been here? You’ve interpretted my thoughts as being negative towards Japan, quite the opposite, i love the place and everything about it.
As for the sleaze, you don’t know me, i don’t write like i’m professor of life like you do, those that know me know that’s my brand of humour for the want of a better expression.
“It’s reasons like my site that you don’t read about blogs in Japan” and it’s people like you i don’t want visiting and banging on about what’s meant to be my life in Japan, through my eyes and un-edited not pandered to people like you.
“I’m assuming that this isn’t an area you’ve actually studied.”
Studied?
This whole thing is getting weirder and weirder.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that Neil was making an observation/opinion. How in the fu__ can it be wrong? Who the fu__ do you think you speak for anyway? I hope Neil ignores every word you typed.
I’d love to ignore it Chris but i feel compelled to respond!
oh faceless Amelia
1. Theory and, academia.. It only brings one thing to the table, an inexperienced opinion. Of course Amae exists, and we can experience Amae everyday in Japan, guided tours on offer if you need proof. If you haven’t seen it you live in a cave, or don’t live in Japan so in that case shut up.
2. Nice sweet sanitized description, ask a male Japanese the hidden meaning… oops they won’t tell you, also part of the Japanese male scene, men only… or maybe you don’t think that exists either…
4. Exists! See it, hear it daily, they even change the shape of their mouths to help with the experience.
5. Go to a Japanese hostess bar, how old are the girls compared to western hostess bars… if a Japanese hostess bar was full of old scrubbers then they would be out of business the first week. I’ve seen plenty of western hostess bars full of old scrubbers, Japanese don’t care for nudity as much as youngness, well that’s what my Japanese males Friends tell me… maybe their wrong also, after they didn’t study Japanese they only live it. please explain what the word “romansuguray” means for us.. …let me help, His salt and pepper hair is alluring to young women….still need help…..didn’t think so…BTW there is no equivalent word for desirable older women…because Neil is right.
6. Maybe Christmas Pudding is an Aussie term, I have heard this only in Australia, in Japan it’s売れ残りのクリスマスケーキor if your not the exponent of Japanese you think you are you can say it like this when you ask your Japanese Boyfriend, urenokori no kurisumasu keeki.
For the other people here the translation is: “On her 25th birthday, an unmarried Japanese woman automatically becomes what’s laughingly referred to as “spoiled sponge cake,” in honor of the Christmas sponge cakes that are discounted and rarely purchased after Dec. 25.”
Seriously, Amelia, do you think the Christmas pudding doesn’t exist? Please, with comments like that nobody who knows anything about Japan will take you seriously.
7. Not unlike Japanese girls who target foreigners because they treat them better than a Japanese Boyfriend. If the girls are happy what’s the issue, I’m sure you’ve never said anything like that to your Friends at girls nights… or maybe you haven’t by reading your comments… Don’t worry I sure Neil targets big breasts also, not so discriminatory after all… Hope that offended you by the way. You seem to have pretty thin skin.. geez, take a pill and have a lay down. Sorry, my bad for seeing the Aussie humor.
8. That’s the Samurai way, that’s why we have Geisha, and ALL Japanese men want some of that action, believe me.
9. Agree, but there a significantly more ball busting western women. Even in divorce, men are not expected to have any responsibility for the children, unlike a western world…. evidence enough I think.. it’s the culture and your opinion won’t change the truth.
10. Yes working hard or you mean staying late until their MALE boss leaves for the night. Random pictures attract people, even you funnily enough, ok I will let you in on a secret, it’s called marketing, shhhhh… keep it quite..
And the unnumbered rest…
No , I am sure Neil isn’t a student of a Japanese Textbook, he just lives here, I guess his life experience counts for nothing…BTW how do people come up with material for your books?….other books??? nooooo… life experience right?……but I’m sure he would get much more from a book…lets go for a tour if you still doubt Neil’s words.
“Massive changes currently occurring in Japanese gender relations, workplace structures and demographics”…yeah right!
“Emotional life , which is older than intellectual life, and deeper, can no more be altered suddenly by a change of milieu than the surface of a mirror can be changed by passing reflections…” Yakumo Koizumi
Please point us to a biography on your life… you’ve seen ours, now show us yours.
Here’s mine, http://www.paulhartrick.com , in case you are seeing red and cant think straight.please drop by so I can ignore you.
Good argument going back there between Neil and Amelia.
Thank you Neil for a good read today. How long did it take you write this post?
Always a fine line between your opinion and people taking it as academic fact - so you will receive opposing arguements, so take it in stride, 大丈夫、 its all gravy.
I agree with the Amae concept and reasoning that you wrote about here. I also agree that your opinions are merely observations not necessarily viewing them as a negative part in Japan. Like you, I love it here. Personally I dont think there is anything wrong with Amae, but comparing it to growing up in Canada and society there - amae (to the degree it is in Japan) is a little strange, but like any culture, it is simply different.
To me it seems through my interpretation of Japanese ads, media, popular culture, that cuteness takes priority over beauty. It sells more too.
Not a full blown research study, but I did a quick search on Google Japan for Kawaii and Kirei in all three kanji, hiragana and katakana.
Kawaii Hiragana かわいい: 71,300,000
Kawaii Katakana カワイイ: 15,000,000
Kawaii Kanji 可愛い: 66,600,000
Kirei Hiragana きれい: 23,800,000
Kirei Katakana キレイ: 43,400,000
Kirei Kanji 奇麗: 1,950,000
Nothing to do with Amae, but when the culture talks about something (i.e. more results for kawaii), then the society (gaijin too here in Japan, including myself) while be influenced by it. I noticed more and more males in Japan try to be more kawaii as opposed to kakkoii.
gabuchan - kawaii name isnt it!
Interesting reply Gabuchan. I probably spent about 30 minutes on the post, i do try and write then refine to make sure it reads how i want it too. Glad you could understand my reasoning and take it for what it was meant to be.
30 mins - thats fast. I guess you must be a good writer. Keep up the site - good work.
I love the way everyone seems to be saying “Well Amelia you don’t have a blog so you have no opinion on this matter” and then just ignoring her. Great job. She’s a close friend of mine and the same university, and is majoring in Japanese studies as well as having lived there. I’d wager her insights would hold a lot of valuable information to anyone willing to read them.
Neil,
I don`t care if you DO live in Japan, and you DO have a Japanese wife.
That does not give you a right to express your personal opinion!!
Damn you!!
Did you get the memo? The one about life?
and I quote…
” No one shall ever say anything that might offend anyone….ever”
Whoever told you you have a right to express your views was lying.
Magic mike and his sidechick amelia airheard have told you whats up and you need to get in-line boy!!!
Go on…..get in line boy…..git!!!
I got it mikey!!….and ophilia.
I checked out the origins of the name “Neil” and guess what I found?
It is traced back to an ancient germanic tribe and it translate to
“He who eats babies”
Now this whole thing makes sense!!!!!!!!
Not disregarded her opinion, happy to hear it and happy to consider that is her opinion and a fair chance we may differ on many points, i’m no so sure Amelia feels the same.
I’ve apprecaited your comments both here and over at japanisdoomed.com Mike, cheers.
Mike, she does have the right to her opinion, but we disagree on most if not all points. We just want to read all her opinions, not just the diatribe she started. I would also like to know the capacity in which she lived in Japan, as you can see we all have a clue on this topic, I can bring my Japanese wife into the discussion if you like, having spoken to her at length on this topic I know what the truth is… please Amelia, educate us, and my Japanese wife… please….
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